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[00:00:01] Hello and welcome to the Mediums Voice podcast. I'm here with my co-host Philip and our two wonderful guests are Heather and Kathy.
[00:00:13] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:14] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:14] Welcome. It's a Christmas special isn't it?
[00:00:18] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:19] There's no Muldwine mind.
[00:00:21] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:22] We've had some jingle bells.
[00:00:25] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:26] Yeah, we've got biscuits and coffee this time.
[00:00:28] Biscuits and coffee.
[00:00:29] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:29] Yeah, no cake this week.
[00:00:31] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:34] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:34] So, we're going to keep this very informal I hope.
[00:00:38] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:38] Yeah, we're just going to sit and chat.
[00:00:41] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:42] Chat rubbish and see what happens.
[00:00:43] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:45] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:45] Our views.
[00:00:47] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:48] We should have had the recording going earlier because we've just spent about 20 minutes talking about all sorts of different things.
[00:00:54] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:55] And then we were like, we best stop talking.
[00:00:58] Heather and Kathy
[00:00:59] Do you want to start recording just in case?
[00:01:02] Heather and Kathy
[00:01:02] Don't want to get burnt out.
[00:01:07] Heather and Kathy
[00:01:28] Right, quite relaxed.
[00:01:29] Board games and everything like that.
[00:01:31] Yeah.
[00:01:31] Oh, I love it.
[00:01:32] Yeah, I love a board game.
[00:01:32] We usually do a murder mystery type thing.
[00:01:34] Oh, do you?
[00:01:34] Oh, wow.
[00:01:35] Right.
[00:01:35] Every year and it's hilarious.
[00:01:38] We don't ever get to...
[00:01:40] How many times have you been the murderer?
[00:01:41] Oh, a couple.
[00:01:43] Oh, right.
[00:01:44] So be careful.
[00:01:45] The halo slipped.
[00:01:47] The halo slipped.
[00:01:48] The halo slipped.
[00:01:49] Heather, what are you doing?
[00:01:50] I'm making Christmas dinner for everybody.
[00:01:52] Yeah.
[00:01:53] And Philip will be washing up.
[00:01:54] Yeah.
[00:01:54] It's going to be a busy day.
[00:01:56] Yeah, Phil.
[00:01:56] I love cooking.
[00:01:57] Yeah, I know.
[00:01:58] I love cooking.
[00:01:58] Well, we've got Katie's boyfriend coming boxing day and then me mum will be down Christmas
[00:02:04] Day.
[00:02:05] Yeah.
[00:02:05] Sharing all the Christmas presents out.
[00:02:07] Going to see Carl's grandkids.
[00:02:10] Busy days, isn't it?
[00:02:11] Nonstop at my house Christmas day.
[00:02:13] Yeah, I was going to say, it's a bit like mine really.
[00:02:15] I've got 12 coming for Christmas dinners.
[00:02:17] Oh, God.
[00:02:18] I'm normally drunk by lunchtime though, so...
[00:02:21] I said, like, make the Christmas dinner with a bottle of wine in your hand.
[00:02:24] Well, I drink Prosecco as I'm cooking.
[00:02:26] Yeah.
[00:02:28] That's how the day goes and it just gets...
[00:02:30] If I'm not driving, I usually start while I'm peeling the veg.
[00:02:34] Yeah.
[00:02:34] Yeah.
[00:02:35] That sounds good to me.
[00:02:37] Yeah.
[00:02:37] And then after dinner, we all sit around the table and then, a bit like you, Cathy, really,
[00:02:43] we get out the board games and then drink again and then flake out in front of the telly
[00:02:49] on the evening.
[00:02:50] You don't get a two-day hangover then, do you?
[00:02:52] No, no.
[00:02:53] Gavin and Stacey's special though, isn't it?
[00:02:55] Oh, this year, yes.
[00:02:56] I forgot about that.
[00:02:57] Yeah.
[00:02:57] I'll be watching that.
[00:02:57] I was just talking to someone today, actually.
[00:02:59] They've been catching up, watching, binge watching all the episodes before that one comes
[00:03:04] out at Christmas time, so...
[00:03:05] I'm doing Christmas cocktails.
[00:03:07] Oh!
[00:03:08] I know.
[00:03:09] I've bought martini glasses.
[00:03:11] Oh, wow.
[00:03:12] How fancy.
[00:03:13] I'll have to fill them.
[00:03:14] Yeah.
[00:03:14] So, I'm doing Christmas cocktails and I've bought...
[00:03:17] You can tell she's from Richmond, can't you?
[00:03:18] Hey.
[00:03:19] I'm not actually.
[00:03:22] I'm doing Christmas.
[00:03:22] And candy canes and all little bits and pieces and cranberries for us cranberries to pop
[00:03:28] in.
[00:03:29] Oh, fancy.
[00:03:29] Yeah.
[00:03:30] So, that's my starter.
[00:03:32] You'll have to send us a picture of them.
[00:03:33] Yeah.
[00:03:34] Yeah.
[00:03:34] So, you know, see how they turn out.
[00:03:36] Yeah.
[00:03:37] Because they sound great but whether or not they turn out or not.
[00:03:42] Not to sell strong, we don't want to podcast that day.
[00:03:47] Yeah.
[00:03:48] Chapter Sensing.
[00:03:49] Yeah.
[00:03:49] That and the Prosecco.
[00:03:50] A lot of beeps.
[00:03:51] A lot of beeps.
[00:03:52] Michelle's off again.
[00:03:53] It sounds like we're all having quite a traditional Christmas time, isn't it, really?
[00:03:58] Yeah, I think so, yeah.
[00:03:59] I mean, not everybody is as lucky, I suppose, as us.
[00:04:03] No.
[00:04:03] Because we, you know, have got family around.
[00:04:06] I've got quite a big family around.
[00:04:08] I know that you...
[00:04:09] Yeah, there's a dessert as well.
[00:04:10] There'll be six of us and to be fair, I like a traditional Christmas.
[00:04:17] Yeah.
[00:04:17] I don't care about getting presents or anything like that.
[00:04:21] I'm not material.
[00:04:21] It's a song in there somewhere.
[00:04:23] It's, yeah, it's kind of spending time with the kids.
[00:04:28] Philip and Michael work a lot.
[00:04:32] So, I don't get to see them.
[00:04:34] I get to see them that day and that's what's more, that's a present to me.
[00:04:38] I was going to say, I think I'm along the same lines as you, to be honest, Heather, because I see it as, because it's quite commercialized now, isn't it, Christmas?
[00:04:46] Yeah.
[00:04:47] And for me, it's not about a religious aspect.
[00:04:50] For me, it's about, like you said, taking time out, having that break from everyday life, isn't it?
[00:04:57] Yeah.
[00:04:58] And spending time, quality time with your family.
[00:05:00] It is.
[00:05:01] It's about looking at things from a different view, isn't it?
[00:05:04] Yeah.
[00:05:05] And you can't do that in the material busyness of the day.
[00:05:08] So, what's important, and it is your family and it is that love that you have for each other, isn't it?
[00:05:14] Yeah.
[00:05:14] And it is important because you don't know next year whether you've got everybody, do you?
[00:05:19] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:20] Especially as you get older.
[00:05:22] Exactly.
[00:05:22] And I mean, I can, because I'm getting to that age, I can look back now at all the different Christmases,
[00:05:27] and I've got some beautiful memories from Christmas.
[00:05:30] Yeah.
[00:05:31] And they're important.
[00:05:32] Well, we're not promised day tomorrow, are we?
[00:05:35] No.
[00:05:35] Exactly.
[00:05:36] No, that's why you should always make the most of today.
[00:05:39] I mean, I'm having a change round, I've been changing bedrooms around and all sorts, and
[00:05:45] I've come across old photographs from Christmas.
[00:05:48] Oh God, yeah, you sent me a picture of it.
[00:05:50] Oh no, I found more.
[00:05:52] I love photographs.
[00:05:53] Philip on his little trike.
[00:05:55] Do you know, it takes you right back to that moment, doesn't it?
[00:05:59] Even the memories that you've forgotten, as soon as you look at a photograph, you see it
[00:06:02] It takes you back to that time.
[00:06:04] That moment.
[00:06:05] That thing happened to me.
[00:06:06] Isn't it?
[00:06:06] Yeah.
[00:06:07] My mum sent me a picture of a certificate that I got in primary school when I was in
[00:06:12] Middleton and Teasdale on a school trip, and instantly I could remember that whole trip.
[00:06:16] It was so bizarre.
[00:06:17] Just remember the feeling.
[00:06:18] Yeah, it was so bizarre, yeah.
[00:06:20] And it captures.
[00:06:20] May I add that the certificate was for being most creative with clothing.
[00:06:25] God knows what I did.
[00:06:27] Creative with clothing!
[00:06:28] I didn't remember that part of it.
[00:06:30] I don't know, yeah.
[00:06:31] God, why aren't they calling me?
[00:06:32] Don't let his dark secrets out.
[00:06:34] No, I'm going to be good tonight.
[00:06:36] Can't you see how stylish I am?
[00:06:38] Yeah.
[00:06:39] But it does make you think, doesn't it?
[00:06:41] Now, I think being spiritual as well, or as spiritual as you can be while you're here,
[00:06:46] that it makes you think about family more, and the ones that are not there.
[00:06:51] And people, I mean, I lost my dad just a couple of weeks before Christmas, a few years
[00:06:57] ago now.
[00:06:58] But it kind of, it makes you think about them.
[00:07:01] It ignites that memory, doesn't it?
[00:07:02] And it brings back, I mean, we go on holiday, and Philip would tell you, I'm terrible.
[00:07:08] And it's not so much like a tacky gift.
[00:07:11] I would buy a fridge magnet or something with the name of a place on.
[00:07:15] So when I look at that, it brings back the memory from what I've done.
[00:07:19] Yeah.
[00:07:19] And I think that's what life's about.
[00:07:21] Yeah.
[00:07:22] Making memories while you're here.
[00:07:24] Tomorrow's not guaranteed.
[00:07:25] No, no.
[00:07:26] And like Kath said, looking back, I'm not as old as Kath.
[00:07:29] No.
[00:07:30] I think as well though, I think Heather as well though, because it's a time where we
[00:07:34] gather around with our friends and our family, it does evoke, doesn't it, that reflection
[00:07:40] on our memories of, you know, our loved ones that aren't there anymore.
[00:07:45] And you do get a sense that, now and again, I think, especially Christmas morning when
[00:07:49] you're doing the veg or when you're doing the cooking.
[00:07:51] Yeah, I wish they were here to see this.
[00:07:52] And you do get the sense of people round and about.
[00:07:55] You can feel them round and about you though sometimes as well, I think.
[00:07:58] Yeah.
[00:07:59] And I think others that's not as fortunate and we've done, not for a year or so, but
[00:08:04] for a couple of years we did like, coats and that, that we wouldn't use anymore.
[00:08:09] And we took them round the homeless on the streets and gave them coats and something to
[00:08:13] keep warm and, you know, bought them a cup of coffee and some food and...
[00:08:18] Yeah.
[00:08:19] My husband sometimes, I get telling off sometimes though, because if we go to these big cities,
[00:08:25] I...
[00:08:25] The city life.
[00:08:26] Yeah.
[00:08:27] The city life.
[00:08:28] Yeah.
[00:08:29] And I'm, I'm just terrible because you see these people, you know, sat in the streets
[00:08:33] and obviously you can't give money to everybody, can you?
[00:08:37] No.
[00:08:37] And you shouldn't give money and that's what I keep getting told off for.
[00:08:41] But you know, I will, I'll buy them some food and a coffee.
[00:08:44] Yeah.
[00:08:44] And a coffee.
[00:08:45] And I'll nip to Greg's and I'll get them a coffee or a pasty or something like that.
[00:08:49] But I remember getting stopped in Darlington once and there was no shops open.
[00:08:55] So I give them £10 and my husband was, my husband was like not impressed because he's
[00:09:01] like, you know, you shouldn't, you shouldn't really give them money if you're going to give
[00:09:04] them something.
[00:09:05] Yeah.
[00:09:05] It's hard to see people struggle.
[00:09:08] Yeah.
[00:09:08] And also, do you know what?
[00:09:09] I've always had arguments with people about stuff like this.
[00:09:12] Not that I know anything about homelessness or anything like that, but to me, how do
[00:09:18] you know what that person is going to spend on?
[00:09:20] Like a lot of people are preconceived.
[00:09:22] That's what my husband said.
[00:09:23] Yeah.
[00:09:23] But he's probably got a preconceived idea.
[00:09:25] Probably.
[00:09:26] Yeah.
[00:09:26] I don't think like that you say.
[00:09:28] I don't either.
[00:09:29] No.
[00:09:29] Because I think, who am I to judge that person?
[00:09:32] And also, how do I know that they are going to do that?
[00:09:37] What you claim that they're going to do, you don't do it?
[00:09:39] You don't.
[00:09:39] So I just think I'm only responsible for myself.
[00:09:43] I'm doing what I perceive to be correct and right.
[00:09:45] And if that helps that person in some way, fair enough.
[00:09:49] If it doesn't, I don't know.
[00:09:52] I don't know what is the right thing to do, but I just think for all I know, they could
[00:09:56] be saving to get a room in a hotel that night.
[00:09:59] Do you know what I mean?
[00:09:59] You don't know.
[00:10:00] I'd love to be able to do that because I mean, we talked to a couple of guys in
[00:10:06] the shops, especially around Durham and find out if these people are genuine.
[00:10:13] Because sometimes they have like a regular spot.
[00:10:16] Do you know what I mean?
[00:10:16] And I'd love to be able to pay like for a hotel room for somebody just to have warm,
[00:10:21] hot shower for one night.
[00:10:22] I suppose the problem with that is, and what I've come to realise as well, even from my
[00:10:27] own experience is that's only a short term fix, isn't it?
[00:10:30] It is.
[00:10:31] It's not the actual solution.
[00:10:32] Yeah.
[00:10:33] And I don't know if we'll probably know what the solution is.
[00:10:36] And we forget as well though, some people prefer to live that way.
[00:10:39] Yeah.
[00:10:39] That's right.
[00:10:40] It's a choice sometimes, but not only.
[00:10:43] Yeah.
[00:10:43] I remember we did a thing where you slept out.
[00:10:46] Do you remember?
[00:10:47] Sleep out for homeless people.
[00:10:49] Yes, I did.
[00:10:50] Yeah, I remember that actually.
[00:10:53] I forgot about that.
[00:10:53] Just remembered memories, isn't it?
[00:10:55] It is memories.
[00:10:56] Yeah.
[00:10:57] Definitely.
[00:10:57] I think it's just Christmas and it's a time to want to give, isn't it?
[00:11:02] Yes.
[00:11:02] You don't want to give.
[00:11:10] But is that where spirituality comes in really?
[00:11:14] I think so.
[00:11:14] To have an open mind and not judge people.
[00:11:16] Yeah.
[00:11:17] It's that empathy and in a way humanitarian.
[00:11:21] It's hard though, isn't it?
[00:11:23] To do it.
[00:11:23] Yeah.
[00:11:24] All the time.
[00:11:25] Consistently.
[00:11:25] Because I think we're conditioned to do it in some respects.
[00:11:29] I think kind of, we naturally want to help people, don't we?
[00:11:35] Yeah.
[00:11:36] I think so.
[00:11:37] And I think that's throughout.
[00:11:39] It's a feel good factor, isn't it?
[00:11:41] Yeah.
[00:11:41] And I suppose that's what we get with mediumship as well though.
[00:11:45] Is I always say to people like, oh, when you do mediumship, you get that feel good
[00:11:49] that you don't get from anything else in life, do you really?
[00:11:52] No.
[00:11:52] And it's hard to explain that feeling that you get.
[00:11:55] But when you unite two people, one in the spirit world, one here, and for the first time, if
[00:12:00] it's the first time, that's just like magical because the whole room changes, everyone experiences
[00:12:05] that feeling.
[00:12:05] And yeah, I think that-
[00:12:07] You can feel it bounce back at you, can't you?
[00:12:09] Yeah.
[00:12:09] When you know it's right, when you know it, you're just there.
[00:12:13] I usually call it tigger in the house because it makes me like feel excited.
[00:12:17] Like energetic.
[00:12:18] Yeah.
[00:12:19] And that energy change.
[00:12:21] Yeah.
[00:12:22] Which you get, you get when you do good things for people, don't you?
[00:12:25] Good deeds are fine.
[00:12:27] You do.
[00:12:27] And I think when you're working with spirit as well, you've got that sense of knowing
[00:12:31] a person that you can't see.
[00:12:33] Yes.
[00:12:34] Yeah.
[00:12:34] You've got the sense of their character, of how they would speak.
[00:12:38] The spirit person.
[00:12:39] Yeah, the spirit person.
[00:12:41] And we don't always interpret it exactly right.
[00:12:45] But that is a beautiful thing, isn't it?
[00:12:47] Oh yeah.
[00:12:48] And nobody can give you that.
[00:12:50] I don't think so, no.
[00:12:51] It's not like any other experience that you have.
[00:12:55] It's so intimate and close.
[00:12:59] Yeah.
[00:12:59] Like you say that, I've said before in, when I've been at events and stuff is, you can't
[00:13:06] replicate that.
[00:13:07] No.
[00:13:07] That feeling at all.
[00:13:08] No matter if you love your job.
[00:13:09] There's no other part of life that has that.
[00:13:12] No.
[00:13:12] That has that.
[00:13:13] And I even had a conversation with someone once where it's a love or an upliftment.
[00:13:20] And I would say that different to what you would experience here.
[00:13:24] Like not even your family's love is the same as that.
[00:13:28] Does that make sense?
[00:13:29] Yes.
[00:13:29] It's very different.
[00:13:30] It's quite, it's intense, isn't it?
[00:13:32] Yeah.
[00:13:32] Yeah.
[00:13:32] That's different.
[00:13:33] You know, I think you take your family's love a bit for granted though, really, and we
[00:13:37] shouldn't.
[00:13:37] So when it comes in from the spirit world, we're really feeling what it's like.
[00:13:42] Yeah.
[00:13:43] Yeah.
[00:13:43] Yeah.
[00:13:43] It's just, it's just there.
[00:13:46] Yeah.
[00:13:47] I was thinking today actually about doing the podcast and the different things that we've
[00:13:51] all experienced in spiritualism.
[00:13:53] And when I first came into spiritualism, and I know it's a long time ago, there was a lot
[00:13:59] more emphasis on philosophy and on good philosophy.
[00:14:03] Yeah.
[00:14:04] I would agree with that.
[00:14:05] And over the years it's changed and some things are for the better.
[00:14:09] Cause I mean, when I first started to come to church, anything was allowed.
[00:14:13] Yeah.
[00:14:13] Do you remember what I mean?
[00:14:14] I can remember people going into trance in an open circle and things like this or on
[00:14:20] the rostrum as well, doing a Sunday service.
[00:14:22] And, and I think we just accepted it then, but obviously attitudes change.
[00:14:29] Yeah.
[00:14:29] Society isn't it as well.
[00:14:31] Exactly.
[00:14:31] So it is, you know, it is difficult, isn't it?
[00:14:35] Sometimes to know what's right.
[00:14:37] I think probably because spiritualism, you know, as a whole, it encompasses really quite
[00:14:46] a wide range of beliefs, doesn't it?
[00:14:49] It does.
[00:14:50] As a whole.
[00:14:51] I think we're influenced a lot by Christianity, but then you've got the Buddhism and then you've
[00:14:56] got other religions.
[00:14:57] And I think that does have an effect because people fetch those beliefs through the door
[00:15:01] when they've been to other churches.
[00:15:03] And I know we have our principles, but I just think you've got to pick from the philosophy
[00:15:09] that that sits well with you and gives you direction and gives you guidance and helps you
[00:15:16] on the path of life.
[00:15:17] And I think that's what philosophy does.
[00:15:20] Yeah.
[00:15:20] Yeah.
[00:15:21] I think maybe to stress the importance of positive philosophy.
[00:15:26] Yeah.
[00:15:26] We spoke about this before, didn't we?
[00:15:28] Where like, you don't want to hear about someone's shop and drip down the Asda or whatever else.
[00:15:33] No.
[00:15:33] When we first started to go to church, there was this thing where if you came to church
[00:15:37] and you went out floating because you'd heard something that inspired you, uplifted you,
[00:15:44] made you happier in some way, then the medium had done the job.
[00:15:48] Yeah.
[00:15:49] And I think in some ways we've lost a little bit of that.
[00:15:52] We have lost that.
[00:15:52] I'd agree with that, yeah.
[00:15:52] And I think there's some things that are better, but there's some things that we could
[00:15:57] do with revisiting and fetching back through into the religion.
[00:16:00] Yeah.
[00:16:01] I'd agree with that, yeah.
[00:16:03] I think as well though that spiritualism, I think for everybody it's quite a personal,
[00:16:10] isn't it, experience.
[00:16:11] It's a deep personal experience.
[00:16:13] Just if you have a room full of spiritualists and you speak to each one, each one will have
[00:16:17] a different reason that they came in.
[00:16:20] View and ideas.
[00:16:21] And different experiences within the religion.
[00:16:24] And we need to be, I know we don't always, but we need to be respectful and open minded.
[00:16:30] Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah.
[00:16:31] Because I suppose people have to remember is your way or my way isn't the right way necessarily
[00:16:39] for everyone else.
[00:16:40] For me, the right way for you, but it may not be the right way for somebody else.
[00:16:44] It's exactly the same when we're talking about our experiences now or view is, we form those
[00:16:50] opinions based upon our experiences that we've had.
[00:16:53] Yes.
[00:16:54] However, someone else hasn't necessarily had them experiences.
[00:16:57] But that's not to say that they're not going to have them experiences.
[00:17:00] No.
[00:17:01] Their journey, they could be a slightly different point in their journey.
[00:17:06] Yeah.
[00:17:07] And I think we've also got to be respectful that some people who have been in their religion
[00:17:13] a long time have seen a lot of different things, but that necessarily isn't reflected
[00:17:17] in their age.
[00:17:18] No.
[00:17:18] Philip's been here since he was what?
[00:17:20] Thirteen, fourteen?
[00:17:21] Yeah, someone like that.
[00:17:22] Yeah.
[00:17:22] I was, I don't know, eighteen, nineteen.
[00:17:26] Yeah.
[00:17:26] But there's some people being, who were maybe in the seventies have just come.
[00:17:30] Yes.
[00:17:30] Yeah.
[00:17:31] And I think it's like twenties.
[00:17:32] Yeah.
[00:17:32] I think we look at age and think it automatically gives you experience and knowledge.
[00:17:38] Yeah.
[00:17:38] And it doesn't really.
[00:17:39] That's right.
[00:17:40] Not within this religion.
[00:17:41] I found that quite a lot actually when I first started out is a lot of people would
[00:17:46] look at us because I was young and yeah, they'd have a different opinion when like I can
[00:17:51] remember a time where I'd been traveling sort of up and down the country for two, three
[00:17:56] years doing mediumship Dems and a lot of people didn't realize that.
[00:18:01] Exactly.
[00:18:01] And I'd been on a lot of courses over the years.
[00:18:04] And you would have seen a lot more in that time than many people who sit in a circle.
[00:18:08] Potentially, yeah.
[00:18:09] Yeah.
[00:18:09] And it's under service once a week.
[00:18:11] I would class myself as lucky because I'd obviously sat with some of the best mediums
[00:18:16] in the country and I'd been on courses with a lot of these people and I'd had a lot of
[00:18:21] experiences that you wouldn't normally get, I would say.
[00:18:25] Yeah.
[00:18:25] In normal day to day things with spiritualism.
[00:18:29] But I suppose that as well, what we always speak about is it's not necessarily all about
[00:18:35] religion either, is it?
[00:18:36] No.
[00:18:36] Because the spirit world exists without religion.
[00:18:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:18:40] And we don't have to be a spiritualist to communicate with the spirit world.
[00:18:44] Exactly.
[00:18:45] There's people who do mediumship, have done it for years, not a spiritualist at all.
[00:18:49] Exactly.
[00:18:49] Not spiritual.
[00:18:50] Yeah.
[00:18:50] I was just going to say that actually when you said it's like when you came to church
[00:18:55] and church is a, I think sometimes it's a doorway for people to join with like-minded people,
[00:19:03] but it's not necessarily that it hasn't been there before you've walked through the church
[00:19:08] doors.
[00:19:09] Yeah, exactly.
[00:19:09] Yeah.
[00:19:09] I mean, there's like loads of odd experiences that people have had as kids.
[00:19:16] Yeah.
[00:19:16] And seen things and heard things and-
[00:19:19] And they don't even know about religion yet.
[00:19:21] Yeah.
[00:19:22] Well, no.
[00:19:22] I mean, you can talk to other friends end up being-
[00:19:25] Well, I think the church isn't for everybody, is it?
[00:19:28] No.
[00:19:28] But I think it's important.
[00:19:30] It's important, the church.
[00:19:32] It is, but it's not for everybody.
[00:19:35] No.
[00:19:35] No.
[00:19:35] And like we just said before though, spirit isn't just in the church because if we go
[00:19:40] back within this religion, I mean, ever since what the 18th century, 19th century, you know,
[00:19:46] spirit has been-
[00:19:48] Investigated, documented.
[00:19:50] Yeah.
[00:19:51] Documented.
[00:19:51] I think since the beginning of time.
[00:19:53] I think so as well, yeah.
[00:19:54] I mean, when you look at the Native American Indians and their ceremonies and how they're
[00:19:57] connected with their ancestors.
[00:20:00] Exactly.
[00:20:00] But it wasn't all in a church.
[00:20:02] No, no, no.
[00:20:03] Exactly.
[00:20:03] That's what I'm saying.
[00:20:04] You know, it's like-
[00:20:05] Churches give you a community.
[00:20:07] Exactly.
[00:20:07] That's what they give you.
[00:20:08] Yes.
[00:20:08] And as much as anything, I think they give you a set of rules.
[00:20:11] Yeah.
[00:20:12] Yeah.
[00:20:12] Sometimes it's good.
[00:20:13] Yeah.
[00:20:13] But for some people, it's not.
[00:20:15] Yeah.
[00:20:16] Yeah.
[00:20:16] I think we spoke about this as well before.
[00:20:18] Yeah, we did, right?
[00:20:18] I think on the episode with Jan where I was saying obviously in spiritualism, the religion,
[00:20:24] you've only got the seven principles, which for me is ideal because if someone tries
[00:20:28] telling me to do X, Y, and Z, and not to do A, V, and C, I have a few-
[00:20:32] It's almost like a safeguarding.
[00:20:34] Yeah.
[00:20:35] Safeguarding, isn't it, with religion?
[00:20:36] Yeah.
[00:20:36] It is.
[00:20:37] And you've got to be careful, but Philip is a lot like me.
[00:20:42] Don't tell me what to do.
[00:20:44] Guide me that way.
[00:20:45] And I think that's what the seven principles give you.
[00:20:48] Just guidance.
[00:20:49] But don't say, don't do this, that, and the other because at the end of the day, I'd
[00:20:53] just turn around and do it anyway.
[00:20:54] Yeah.
[00:20:55] They're not there to be obeyed.
[00:20:56] They're there for guidance.
[00:20:57] And they always had open to interpretation at the bottom.
[00:21:01] Oh, yes.
[00:21:01] When it first came in, it was in every hymn book.
[00:21:04] Yeah.
[00:21:04] On the bottom of principles.
[00:21:05] I mean, we're talking about the principles, you know, on this podcast here, but not everybody
[00:21:11] that is listening will understand the principles of spiritualism or, you know, the seven principles
[00:21:18] because we're just all sat here talking about it.
[00:21:21] But I could tell you them and then for people who aren't spiritualists.
[00:21:25] The fatherhood of God.
[00:21:26] So number one is the fatherhood of God.
[00:21:28] Number two is the brotherhood of man.
[00:21:30] Number three is the communion of spirits and the ministry of angels.
[00:21:35] Oh, that's an interesting one, isn't it?
[00:21:36] Number four, the continuous existence of the human soul.
[00:21:41] Number five, personal responsibility.
[00:21:43] Number six, compensation and retribution hereafter for all the good and evil deeds done on earth.
[00:21:49] That's a tongue twister.
[00:21:51] And number seven, which is eternal progress open to every human soul.
[00:21:56] SNU spiritualism, I must stress.
[00:21:59] Yeah, the seven principles of that.
[00:22:01] But there's all different churches within because you've got your Christianity,
[00:22:06] you've got your independence.
[00:22:08] Independent ones, yeah, which may differ.
[00:22:10] Yeah.
[00:22:11] So they're all different.
[00:22:12] I think they're quite easy to go by, aren't they?
[00:22:16] And I get religion's not for everyone, which is fine.
[00:22:20] It wasn't for me for a lot of years.
[00:22:23] I think in some respects, as we go through life, we dip in and dip out.
[00:22:29] When it's appropriate, when your circumstances allow it.
[00:22:33] A massive break, yeah.
[00:22:35] And I think there's one light, sorry.
[00:22:38] And it's also about things that happen in your life.
[00:22:40] There's sometimes when you think, I'm just not going to go because I don't want,
[00:22:46] I don't want that religious aspect.
[00:22:48] Yeah.
[00:22:48] You need something else at those points.
[00:22:50] But I think the fact that you can always come back and you can always walk through the doors of a spiritualist church,
[00:22:56] and you know you're at home.
[00:22:58] Yeah, yeah.
[00:22:59] I can say, do you know what, since I came into this religion,
[00:23:03] I've made some amazing, wonderful friends.
[00:23:09] And that's really special.
[00:23:11] But the people I've met, I wouldn't necessarily meet in my everyday life.
[00:23:16] No, that's exactly what I said to Jan when she was on before, is that I've met, especially when I was younger,
[00:23:22] like I'd met people who were like double, triple my age,
[00:23:26] and I would have never have come into contact with them people.
[00:23:29] And a lot of them people I'm now friends with who are classed as friends.
[00:23:33] So yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?
[00:23:35] How you, yeah, you are older than me, Michelle.
[00:23:38] Just in case anyone was doubting that.
[00:23:42] We won't talk about age on the other side.
[00:23:44] Not that we don't talk about age on this podcast.
[00:23:48] Philip just had a rough peep around Michelle.
[00:23:50] It's alright darling, you look younger.
[00:23:52] He keeps saying how young he is, but I'm sure he's a lot older.
[00:23:56] Yeah, I'm getting on a bit now.
[00:23:57] How long have you been in spiritualism, Kath?
[00:24:00] 40 years.
[00:24:01] 40 years.
[00:24:02] So between us, we've got over 85 years of experience with spiritualism.
[00:24:07] Isn't that mad?
[00:24:08] Yeah, it is really, because that's like more than a lifetime.
[00:24:12] Yeah.
[00:24:14] But going back to Christmas, because obviously...
[00:24:18] Oh yeah, it's Christmas special.
[00:24:20] We've digressed.
[00:24:20] It's Christmas special.
[00:24:22] So obviously it's Christmas special and we're sat here
[00:24:26] and there's a gorgeous little Christmas tree next to us with all the baubles hanging on the tree.
[00:24:32] And at the top of the tree is an angel.
[00:24:36] Oh yes.
[00:24:38] Which is a symbol, isn't it?
[00:24:40] I suppose a symbol of Christianity, isn't it?
[00:24:44] Probably.
[00:24:45] A symbol.
[00:24:45] Well, I think it represents various things, not just Christianity to be honest.
[00:24:51] Angels represent quite a few, don't they?
[00:24:54] Why vary things?
[00:24:55] Yes.
[00:24:55] So we can see them as protectors or they're to help us.
[00:25:00] They don't necessarily have to have wings.
[00:25:02] But they are a wonderful symbol that we put on our Christmas tree.
[00:25:06] This always crops up, this.
[00:25:08] Angels and...
[00:25:09] It does.
[00:25:10] I think especially within this religion, I've heard so many speakers on the roster and refer to angels.
[00:25:16] Yes.
[00:25:17] I don't think I can accept them in the traditional way of the long gown and the halo and the wings.
[00:25:24] Yeah.
[00:25:25] But I sometimes think, is the word spirit guide and inspire the same as an angel?
[00:25:32] You know, my mum's passed away and I refer to her as my angel.
[00:25:38] Yeah.
[00:25:38] Which makes sense.
[00:25:39] And that's somebody that would watch over you and protect you.
[00:25:43] Which is exactly what we think about angels, isn't it?
[00:25:46] Yeah.
[00:25:46] So I suppose everybody's got quite a varied view of angels.
[00:25:49] But they do...
[00:25:50] They are a big representation around Christmas, aren't they?
[00:25:54] And I think sometimes the spirit world will give you your interpretation.
[00:26:01] The way you understand or feel or say things isn't the same way as somebody else.
[00:26:07] I don't suppose we'll ever know that we're over there, but really are they something, as we would refer to, a spirit guide level?
[00:26:15] Or something as a protector, a doorkeeper, part of our team?
[00:26:22] It's a bit of a symbol.
[00:26:23] Is it that?
[00:26:23] Is it that comfort for that person that's more important than the name?
[00:26:27] It's symbology, isn't it?
[00:26:29] Yeah.
[00:26:29] Yeah.
[00:26:30] And I think this is one of the big debates I have quite often is that when you pass to the spirit world,
[00:26:36] and people pass to the spirit world, they talk about seeing angels and stuff like that.
[00:26:40] Is that just because that's what they already know and expect?
[00:26:44] Exactly.
[00:26:45] And therefore the spirit world show themselves as that.
[00:26:48] Exactly.
[00:26:49] To me, in a way, why would I ask for this angel, so to speak?
[00:26:55] I could just ask for my family members in the spirit world to protect me.
[00:26:59] You know, I'm controversial because I don't believe in protection and all that stuff, and each to their own.
[00:27:06] Yeah.
[00:27:08] I was going to say, so an angel is typically, isn't it, understood as a spiritual being or a messenger.
[00:27:16] Yeah.
[00:27:16] I was just actually thinking about that.
[00:27:18] If you think about the nativity story itself, the Christmas story, the angel was a messenger from God.
[00:27:24] Yeah.
[00:27:25] And it was to give a message direct to somebody on the earth.
[00:27:30] Yeah.
[00:27:30] So almost like serving as an intermediary between the two worlds.
[00:27:35] Maybe a medium in their own right.
[00:27:36] Yeah.
[00:27:37] Yeah.
[00:27:37] But in many belief systems, angels are considered benevolent and act as protectors, don't they?
[00:27:45] So guides or carriers of divine messages, which is what, you know, we...
[00:27:52] Do you think that stems from Orthodox religion?
[00:27:54] Yeah.
[00:27:54] Well, I was just going to say actually, because it's in Christianity, Judaism...
[00:28:00] Judaism, right.
[00:28:01] ...and Islam.
[00:28:02] So angels are seen as beings who follow God's will and help carry out divine purposes.
[00:28:07] So does that mean we're all angels?
[00:28:09] Yeah, I am.
[00:28:10] Yeah.
[00:28:10] Oh yeah.
[00:28:10] I'm full of darling, we've never had rings.
[00:28:13] We're all angels.
[00:28:14] We're all angels.
[00:28:14] You see, Heather, I told you I had a heel.
[00:28:16] Yeah.
[00:28:17] I agree now.
[00:28:18] Yeah.
[00:28:19] So I suppose in a spiritual sense or a religious sense, they are, I suppose, described as that.
[00:28:25] But for anybody that isn't from a religious aspect, would call them a very kind person, generous person.
[00:28:33] Somebody that looks after us, a bit like I said with my mum and...
[00:28:38] But if you think about that though, so like you could call a carer an angel.
[00:28:42] Exactly.
[00:28:43] Yes.
[00:28:44] You could call a medium an angel.
[00:28:45] Yeah.
[00:28:45] You could call anyone an angel.
[00:28:46] Anybody, anybody that's kind and generous.
[00:28:49] It's your perspective.
[00:28:49] Angel Philip.
[00:28:50] And what a comfy word.
[00:28:52] I wonder where the image of the angel with the wings and the...
[00:28:56] Actually came from.
[00:28:57] Was it an artist, do you think?
[00:28:59] Was it somebody...
[00:29:00] Please hold, Collie, your call's important to us.
[00:29:03] Michelle's on the research straight away there.
[00:29:05] I agree.
[00:29:06] It's interesting.
[00:29:06] You know when you say some of the chapels were the paintings, they're very much depicted,
[00:29:11] aren't they, in artwork.
[00:29:13] So, were they?
[00:29:14] That also makes me think how many artists are influenced by the spirit world.
[00:29:19] Yes, I totally agree.
[00:29:21] I've heard that said before actually.
[00:29:22] And the same with like, not necessarily just painting, but music, musicians, any creative
[00:29:29] form.
[00:29:29] I think if you listen to, I can't remember who I was listening to, but it was one of the
[00:29:33] big composers, one of the famous ones.
[00:29:36] And they were saying they almost go into a trance-like state when they're writing their
[00:29:42] music.
[00:29:42] Oh, is that interesting?
[00:29:42] Yeah.
[00:29:43] And I just thought, oh, that must be amazing.
[00:29:47] I've heard something...
[00:29:47] But is that communication?
[00:29:48] Yeah, I don't wonder that.
[00:29:49] Is there a divine inspiration?
[00:29:51] Yeah.
[00:29:51] I do wonder that.
[00:29:52] Some of the more modern artists as well.
[00:29:54] I've...
[00:29:54] I watched an interview with somebody, and don't...
[00:29:58] Well, you can quote me on this, and if you like, I'm not 100% correct.
[00:30:02] I'm not sure if it was Elton John or something like that.
[00:30:06] He can write songs in minutes.
[00:30:08] And he said, he feels inspired.
[00:30:11] Now, is it that sort of inspiration?
[00:30:14] Mm-hmm.
[00:30:14] Makes you wonder.
[00:30:15] It does, yeah.
[00:30:16] It does, isn't it?
[00:30:17] With a...
[00:30:18] Yeah.
[00:30:18] Especially if you've got a hit from like 30, 40 years ago, and you're still making
[00:30:22] millions of pounds each year, isn't it?
[00:30:24] It's...
[00:30:27] I could do with being more creative, I think.
[00:30:29] That's where Robbie Williams got his angels song from.
[00:30:36] Oh dear.
[00:30:38] Sorry, I had to put that one in.
[00:30:40] Got images of...
[00:30:44] The angels symbol, literally, from what I saw when I Googled just a minute ago, but
[00:30:51] there was loads on there.
[00:30:52] So I had just had a quick peek, and it goes right, right, the way back to Greek mythology.
[00:31:00] Oh yeah.
[00:31:01] And it probably goes back further than that, but it's just what I...
[00:31:05] Yeah.
[00:31:06] It's just what I quickly, quickly saw.
[00:31:08] You've got the ancient Egyptians with Hathor and things like that.
[00:31:11] Yeah.
[00:31:12] Was that their form of angel?
[00:31:13] And it's just...
[00:31:14] As society's grown, and things have changed.
[00:31:18] Has the Imogen changed?
[00:31:20] That's led me on to my question, which I was wanting to ask today.
[00:31:24] I wondered what people's thoughts are on, is there levels in the spirit world?
[00:31:30] Is there levels of, oh, if I do a bad thing here, do I go to a...
[00:31:34] Not hell.
[00:31:35] I don't want to say hell.
[00:31:36] Did we not touch on that with Les?
[00:31:37] Yeah, I'm sure we did.
[00:31:38] We spoke a little.
[00:31:39] Les Henderson, I should say.
[00:31:41] We spoke a little bit about that.
[00:31:43] Do you know, it's something that, in the years that I've been in the spiritualist church,
[00:31:48] it comes up time and time again.
[00:31:50] Yeah, it does.
[00:31:50] Some people say there's 12 levels or...
[00:31:53] But how can you measure the number of levels?
[00:31:58] I do think, personally, I believe, if there's reincarnation,
[00:32:05] it makes sense that each time you come onto the earth plane, you learn something else.
[00:32:10] Yeah.
[00:32:11] And I think the journey is from absolutely nothing through all of the different lifetimes,
[00:32:17] then for a period of time...
[00:32:18] Well, I know there's no time in spirit, but learning from what's in the spirit world,
[00:32:24] do you then become part of God?
[00:32:28] Is that what the levels are about in the journey?
[00:32:31] But that's just my thought.
[00:32:33] Yeah, okay, yeah.
[00:32:34] Can I just throw a spanner in the works here?
[00:32:36] Go on then.
[00:32:37] You don't believe in God.
[00:32:38] No, I don't.
[00:32:39] But what happens...
[00:32:43] This is getting really deep now.
[00:32:46] What happens when our earth literally explodes?
[00:32:52] Are we connected to the earth?
[00:32:53] Where does all the spirit world go?
[00:32:54] What is going to happen?
[00:32:54] Are we connected to the earth, really?
[00:32:56] I would say no.
[00:32:57] Do you think we're connected?
[00:32:58] What happens to the humanity?
[00:33:00] Well, humanity, the spirit world isn't bound to here.
[00:33:05] No, exactly.
[00:33:07] But how will that affect, impact?
[00:33:10] How will that change?
[00:33:11] Do you know what I'm saying?
[00:33:12] I do, yeah.
[00:33:12] I suppose that's beyond...
[00:33:14] Beyond our...
[00:33:15] Well, I'm not trying to be morbid to you, but once we all die as a result of this earth
[00:33:20] explosion...
[00:33:21] Christmas cataclysmic event.
[00:33:23] Yeah, as earth explodes and we all pass to the spirit world, we'd all be over there.
[00:33:28] So you wouldn't miss anyone because you'd all be in the same place.
[00:33:30] There'd be no communicators and no mediums left.
[00:33:32] But I think...
[00:33:33] You wouldn't need a medium.
[00:33:34] I think I know where you're coming from.
[00:33:36] Is the spirit world connected to the earth, Claire?
[00:33:39] Is it?
[00:33:39] Or is it not?
[00:33:40] You're saying not.
[00:33:41] I would say no.
[00:33:42] No, I say no.
[00:33:43] I don't think it is.
[00:33:44] But again, the earth is a physical thing.
[00:33:47] Yeah.
[00:33:48] The spirit world, well, is it?
[00:33:50] Is it a physical thing?
[00:33:52] Is it an energy?
[00:33:53] Is it a mix of both?
[00:33:54] I wouldn't say it's bound to the earth.
[00:33:57] No.
[00:33:58] We have an attachment to it.
[00:33:59] I think it's difficult because then are we just going to float around in the universe?
[00:34:03] 100%.
[00:34:03] I would absolutely love that.
[00:34:05] It'd be brilliant.
[00:34:06] Do you not think?
[00:34:07] You can laugh.
[00:34:08] It's okay to laugh.
[00:34:09] I'll be floating around.
[00:34:09] No, I'd like to be doing something rather than just floating.
[00:34:12] Oh, I'll be doing stuff.
[00:34:12] But I'll be floating around the universe living my best life.
[00:34:15] Uh-huh.
[00:34:15] It'd be brilliant.
[00:34:17] Well, that's a very interesting question.
[00:34:19] It is, isn't it?
[00:34:20] It is.
[00:34:21] I suppose if you think about it, if the spirit world was bound or connected to the earth,
[00:34:29] then if that was the case...
[00:34:31] I don't think they are connected.
[00:34:32] No, I'm not.
[00:34:32] I'm saying if they were though, I'm trying to keep it balanced here.
[00:34:36] Right, okay.
[00:34:37] It's getting very complex.
[00:34:38] Yeah, then you would sense the spirit world wherever that person passed all the time.
[00:34:44] Mm-hmm.
[00:34:45] Do you see what I mean?
[00:34:45] But we do.
[00:34:47] Yeah, but if I died here, I'd be stuck here, wouldn't I?
[00:34:50] Yeah, I suppose.
[00:34:51] I wouldn't be able to...
[00:34:52] You couldn't communicate with me down the road.
[00:34:54] Getting back to what Philip said about the different levels.
[00:34:57] I don't know.
[00:34:59] I tend to think of everybody kind of just there.
[00:35:05] A light, if you like.
[00:35:06] But I think each light will shine at a different intensity based on, not necessarily intelligence,
[00:35:16] but what they've learned on the way.
[00:35:17] I'm not good if it's based on intelligence.
[00:35:19] And what they...
[00:35:21] Individuality.
[00:35:22] Yeah.
[00:35:22] Or spirituality.
[00:35:23] What they've picked up and are able to pass on.
[00:35:26] You know, they can look at a farmer or a factory worker and they can have had a lot of life experience.
[00:35:34] And people can learn from a textbook, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have that knowledge to pass on.
[00:35:43] Yeah, but I don't think when we pass over to the spirit world any of that's relevant.
[00:35:47] No, I don't mind on that level.
[00:35:49] I mean...
[00:35:49] Eternal progress open to that human soul, don't we?
[00:35:52] Yeah, that's what I mean.
[00:35:53] So there must be progression after this life, in the next life.
[00:35:57] Yes, but I think we can always progress.
[00:36:01] Like...
[00:36:01] Yes.
[00:36:01] None of us have learned absolutely everything that we can learn here today.
[00:36:05] I think it's a choice.
[00:36:06] So you choose whether you want to learn and progress in the spirit world.
[00:36:10] Yeah, I think it's a choice.
[00:36:11] We've got choice here, I suppose, haven't we?
[00:36:13] Yeah.
[00:36:13] Why wouldn't it be a choice?
[00:36:15] You could choose to stay on that level with the amount of knowledge you've got.
[00:36:18] I'm not saying levels.
[00:36:19] You could help that, say, level of people just underneath that need picking up a bit.
[00:36:28] See, that doesn't fathom what I mean.
[00:36:30] It doesn't mean.
[00:36:31] And the only reason I'm saying this is because, to me, it all stems from Orthodox religion.
[00:36:36] Yeah.
[00:36:37] That's where I'm asking.
[00:36:38] Is that what you think?
[00:36:39] Everyone's got their own view.
[00:36:40] Yeah.
[00:36:41] And there's nothing wrong with any other religion either.
[00:36:44] No.
[00:36:44] I just want to say that.
[00:36:45] But, I do believe...
[00:36:47] I like talking about people's beliefs.
[00:36:49] I think it's important.
[00:36:50] I think it's important to respect everybody's views, isn't it?
[00:36:53] Absolutely, yeah.
[00:36:54] Yeah, without a doubt.
[00:36:55] Which goes back to this.
[00:36:56] That's not to say that we know it all and that I'm right, you're right, or anybody else's right.
[00:37:02] I don't think any of us will kind of...
[00:37:04] I think if you do, you stop progressing yourself.
[00:37:07] If you think you know everything, then you'll never ever learn anything again.
[00:37:10] I know a person who, at the time of his life, it was like, A-levels, etc.
[00:37:17] Potentially able to go on to do degrees, be a doctor, or do whatever he wanted to do.
[00:37:23] And he chooses to be a welder, because that's what he likes.
[00:37:27] So, it's his choice, that's what I'm saying.
[00:37:29] Is it your choice to stay on a level, if that's what you want to class it as, and potentially help others there?
[00:37:38] Yeah, I agree with that.
[00:37:40] Yeah, I'd probably agree with that.
[00:37:41] But I'd also ask the question as well, or put it out there, that is it also a choice of our belief as well over there?
[00:37:54] Because are you open-minded to different possibilities as well?
[00:38:01] Because that would restrict your growth if you weren't.
[00:38:04] I think...
[00:38:05] Does that make sense?
[00:38:06] Yeah, from my experience, that does happen, because we get people of other faiths communicating with us as mediums.
[00:38:15] That's right.
[00:38:15] And you can tell, sometimes, that that person isn't comfortable with the process that's taking place.
[00:38:23] Or they feel uneasy.
[00:38:24] Even though they're in the spirit world, they still feel that uneasiness, because it's not natural.
[00:38:30] Yeah.
[00:38:30] Well, some people, though, from a different belief, I know when I've given communication before, and I've had strong Catholic faiths come forward,
[00:38:40] sometimes I've had communication where they've been pleased to be able to make that communication.
[00:38:47] And it's been exciting, even though they've got a different faith and a different belief.
[00:38:51] Yeah.
[00:38:52] Having that communication from the spirit world to the recipient...
[00:38:56] They're almost like, oh my gosh, this is possible in the spirit world.
[00:39:00] Yeah.
[00:39:00] Yeah.
[00:39:01] But you can do this, there's no restriction.
[00:39:03] Exactly.
[00:39:03] Yeah.
[00:39:03] I think when you get into the spirit world, there must be much more of a freedom within your different religious beliefs.
[00:39:09] Yeah.
[00:39:10] Because every religion has...
[00:39:12] The word religion should mean to become a better person, shouldn't it?
[00:39:16] And every religion has something positive, nurturing, that'll help you.
[00:39:21] Some aspect of it, yeah.
[00:39:22] Yeah.
[00:39:22] And I think if you can put all of them together from all of the different religions...
[00:39:26] I think it's the same meeting point at the end of the road, isn't it?
[00:39:28] Exactly.
[00:39:28] It's that one common thing we all have in common.
[00:39:31] We take that different journey, but it's the same meeting point.
[00:39:34] Yeah.
[00:39:35] And once you're over there, there's no religion in the spirit world.
[00:39:38] There's just spirits.
[00:39:39] I remember a well-known medium, he worked the rostrum for many years, served many churches,
[00:39:45] and he had a very different background, a very religious background.
[00:39:49] He used to be a monk.
[00:39:51] He had a very different name.
[00:39:53] And I remember him opening in prayer, but he would say, let's say the prayer you taught us to pray.
[00:40:01] Now for me, that wasn't about another religion.
[00:40:04] That was about a coming together.
[00:40:06] It brought me memories from being...
[00:40:09] That's lovely that is, isn't it?
[00:40:10] Because saying that, it's not just the one, the Lord's Prayer, it's your prayer.
[00:40:14] It was like being at school and having that community for everybody drawn together.
[00:40:23] So it wasn't the Lord's Prayer, it was the prayer you taught us to pray.
[00:40:27] Exactly.
[00:40:28] And it was like, I don't know, there was something in church when he said it, where you could feel that community, that togetherness.
[00:40:37] And I just, this guy, he was just so special.
[00:40:40] He was lovely.
[00:40:41] He was so, so special.
[00:40:42] He was a nice man.
[00:40:42] He gave so much.
[00:40:44] And he had his trials and tribulations on life.
[00:40:46] He did indeed.
[00:40:46] And he shared those.
[00:40:47] And I think when people hear that from somebody like him, they think, well, it's not just me.
[00:40:53] Yeah.
[00:40:54] You know, everybody has issues, problems.
[00:40:57] He would have been excellent to have on this one.
[00:40:58] Oh, he would have been good, wouldn't he?
[00:41:00] Fascinating, yeah.
[00:41:01] He would have been crazy because he had such a wicked sense of humor.
[00:41:04] Oh, that was wrong, yeah.
[00:41:04] From the background he had as well.
[00:41:06] He was amazing.
[00:41:07] And it just resonates with me, the prayer you taught us to pray, no matter who taught
[00:41:13] you or what the words are.
[00:41:15] I love that because then that can mean lots of different things.
[00:41:19] I mean, it was for the Lord's Prayer.
[00:41:23] It brought that togetherness for me.
[00:41:26] So have we answered the question about Levens?
[00:41:29] I don't know if we have really.
[00:41:30] I don't think we'll ever know.
[00:41:32] Not to get out there.
[00:41:33] Is that really an answer to it, Kat?
[00:41:34] No, I don't think so.
[00:41:35] It doesn't resonate with me.
[00:41:37] No.
[00:41:37] Me neither.
[00:41:38] And I think we always, always, like you say, it crops up over the years, doesn't it?
[00:41:43] It does.
[00:41:44] And I hear different mediums say different things.
[00:41:46] Yeah.
[00:41:46] And I've heard it more in trans situations, which is quite strange.
[00:41:52] Yeah.
[00:41:53] But again, I think I've got an open mind and…
[00:41:56] Yeah.
[00:41:56] See what happens.
[00:41:57] Exactly.
[00:41:58] That's the best thing, isn't it?
[00:41:59] Yeah.
[00:42:00] I think that's really important to take note on is to keep an open mind because what you
[00:42:06] think now is not necessarily what you're going to think later.
[00:42:08] Well, when you think back to when you were a teenager and everything was so black and
[00:42:12] white and you knew everything.
[00:42:13] Yeah.
[00:42:15] Not even that.
[00:42:15] But I think it's…
[00:42:17] I think as you grow, you realise you don't know everything and that there's so many different
[00:42:21] shades of grey in life that it's not black and white.
[00:42:25] I know from my own personal journey, I know from when I came into this religion, you know,
[00:42:31] my views right back from day one were probably quite narrow minded.
[00:42:36] Yeah.
[00:42:37] And I'd probably say now I'm more open minded and through that I've had more diverse
[00:42:43] experiences.
[00:42:43] I was definitely like that.
[00:42:45] I was definitely like that.
[00:42:46] I think I…
[00:42:46] Yeah.
[00:42:47] I mean, I can remember thinking this is right and that's wrong.
[00:42:49] And as you get further on in life and you've experienced some of those things yourself,
[00:42:54] it's not so easy.
[00:42:55] I'm still a little bit like that.
[00:42:57] I'll be open.
[00:42:58] I can be picky.
[00:42:59] You're still quite young though.
[00:43:00] Yeah.
[00:43:00] See, I told you.
[00:43:01] I am.
[00:43:02] Does that mean I'm young as well?
[00:43:03] No.
[00:43:04] I think I always come from a thing of like usually common sense.
[00:43:10] Yeah.
[00:43:11] That's probably mine to be honest.
[00:43:14] But do you not think the best thing about this and doing the podcast, coming together,
[00:43:18] talking about this, we're keeping ourselves open for answers that we might never get to
[00:43:25] know.
[00:43:25] Yeah.
[00:43:26] That might in fact just change.
[00:43:28] As long as we're looking, we're seeking the answers, we're not having enough ego to
[00:43:35] just shut it down and saying that is it.
[00:43:38] It is progression.
[00:43:39] Yeah.
[00:43:40] I think we're all searching for the same thing, aren't we?
[00:43:42] We're all searching for that divine truth.
[00:43:44] I don't know what I'm searching for.
[00:43:46] I do know what I'm searching for.
[00:43:48] I'm searching for evidence to either prove or disprove the existence of life after death.
[00:43:55] And this is very controversial, but I'm open to either.
[00:43:59] That's the truth, isn't it?
[00:44:00] Yeah.
[00:44:01] But it doesn't matter how much evidence we get within this religion.
[00:44:06] We always want more.
[00:44:09] We question it.
[00:44:10] And we question it as well.
[00:44:11] We do.
[00:44:12] Even when it's given to us.
[00:44:15] And sometimes, you know, you're given experiences and there's like no explanation and we'll still
[00:44:21] sit there and question everything.
[00:44:24] Yeah.
[00:44:24] Try and rationalise it.
[00:44:25] Yeah.
[00:44:26] But, you know, that's a good thing though.
[00:44:28] I don't see that as a bad thing because I think we can jump to so many conclusions.
[00:44:32] I think we're not a faith-based religion.
[00:44:36] And another medium that we know says that,
[00:44:40] spiritualism is not a faith-based religion.
[00:44:42] We are an evidence-based religion.
[00:44:45] Yes.
[00:44:45] Absolutely.
[00:44:46] And so that evidence is an ongoing process, isn't it?
[00:44:51] Yeah.
[00:44:51] And that's why I'm so interested in the science side and there's massive, massive amounts
[00:44:56] of science studies now.
[00:44:57] Yeah.
[00:44:58] It is, isn't it?
[00:44:58] Yeah.
[00:44:59] I quite like that respect of it too, Philip, because that gives me more of my proof if I
[00:45:05] can see it.
[00:45:06] Yeah.
[00:45:06] Something tangible.
[00:45:08] Yeah.
[00:45:08] I think we're all like that though.
[00:45:10] Yeah.
[00:45:10] Initially, walking into church, I don't really know what I was looking for.
[00:45:15] I was curious.
[00:45:17] Yeah.
[00:45:17] And I don't think that's ever gone.
[00:45:19] As you get more evidence, like you've spoken about, Michelle, where, you know, you can't
[00:45:25] explain it rationally and there's something, you've had an experience, I can't explain
[00:45:30] it, I know what I experienced.
[00:45:32] As stuff like that happens, you just gain more questions, don't you?
[00:45:35] And before you know it, you're down a rabbit hole.
[00:45:37] It must be lovely to have a blind faith, mustn't it?
[00:45:41] I couldn't.
[00:45:42] I know I can't.
[00:45:43] I wouldn't like to.
[00:45:43] That's why I'm in this religion.
[00:45:44] Yeah.
[00:45:46] I like to go off my own experiences.
[00:45:49] I can't believe it until I've experienced it or seen it myself.
[00:45:53] I'm exactly like that.
[00:45:54] I think the majority of people are really.
[00:45:56] Yeah.
[00:45:57] Within this religion.
[00:45:58] Yeah.
[00:45:59] Within, yeah.
[00:46:00] Yeah.
[00:46:01] You do have to be careful about it because-
[00:46:03] Do you not think as well though, some things we have seen and experienced, it can still
[00:46:09] leave us with an air of doubt because we question.
[00:46:13] Yes.
[00:46:14] Yeah.
[00:46:14] I would say so.
[00:46:15] Yes.
[00:46:16] Because I've had some excellent evidence.
[00:46:18] Wasn't it?
[00:46:18] Yeah, I have as well.
[00:46:19] I've still questioned everything.
[00:46:21] And I'm still here going, I either want to prove or just prove.
[00:46:24] Yeah, exactly.
[00:46:25] It doesn't matter what they give us.
[00:46:26] We're just like, yeah, I need more.
[00:46:28] The spirit world sat there like, for God's sake, do we have to give you any more proof?
[00:46:32] To be fair, there is now a lot of studies into the spirit world in the science community.
[00:46:38] Yes, there is.
[00:46:39] And I'm hoping sometime, maybe next year that we get someone on or a gentleman from
[00:46:45] down south on who's, that's his job.
[00:46:48] He studies anomalous experiences.
[00:46:50] Oh, that would be really interesting to hear.
[00:46:52] Yeah.
[00:46:52] The scientific background.
[00:46:55] One thing I found so interesting when I was down there with them is that what we forget
[00:47:00] is a lot of people around the world have these experiences.
[00:47:04] Mm-hmm.
[00:47:04] There's millions of people that have these experiences that can't be explained.
[00:47:09] Mm-hmm.
[00:47:09] You know, that doesn't necessarily prove there's life after death, but it certainly makes you
[00:47:13] question and investigate.
[00:47:15] But you just have to look at the Bible, don't you?
[00:47:18] Yeah.
[00:47:18] And history itself.
[00:47:19] How many spiritual experiences that people had over the centuries that's been recorded?
[00:47:25] John of Arc.
[00:47:26] You know, and horrible things happen to them and there's just too much of it out there
[00:47:30] maybe, isn't there?
[00:47:31] For there to be nothing.
[00:47:32] Yeah.
[00:47:33] Yeah.
[00:47:34] My mum was very, very religious.
[00:47:37] He'd give me a choice from what I wanted.
[00:47:40] I brought the kids up.
[00:47:41] I brought them up to be open-minded and choose what they wanted.
[00:47:44] Yeah.
[00:47:44] And never ever made them do anything.
[00:47:46] I think that's really important.
[00:47:46] That's really important.
[00:47:47] I can always remember there was a girl I worked with and she had been made to go to
[00:47:52] church and she hated it.
[00:47:54] Yeah.
[00:47:54] Absolutely hated it and she walked away and it caused a rift in her family.
[00:47:59] And I remember saying, I don't make my kids do anything, believe anything because we're
[00:48:05] told it's our own journey.
[00:48:07] Yeah, exactly.
[00:48:07] Life is our own journey.
[00:48:09] I think it's a choice, isn't it?
[00:48:10] And I think she would have liked to go back to church but if she did, it gave her the
[00:48:15] expectation of...
[00:48:16] Just before we wrap up, by the way, I think another important thing just on the back of
[00:48:20] what you said, Kath, about history is when you look at all the other faiths, they all
[00:48:25] have a belief in there being something else after death, don't they?
[00:48:28] Yes, exactly.
[00:48:29] And it's strange.
[00:48:31] We are the only one to practice it.
[00:48:33] Yeah.
[00:48:33] To provide evidence of that, yeah.
[00:48:35] But it goes back to what Michelle says though, isn't it?
[00:48:38] There's many roads to my father's house, isn't there?
[00:48:42] Yeah.
[00:48:43] Yeah.
[00:48:43] We're all on different journeys but the destination's the same.
[00:48:47] We're just on a different path.
[00:48:48] And I think, suppose at Christmas time we have to be aware that more tolerance is
[00:48:54] needed in the world, not just at Christmas but right through the year.
[00:48:57] I was just going to say actually before you said that, you're a prime example of that
[00:49:02] because you drive one place one way and come back another way, don't you?
[00:49:05] I do, yeah.
[00:49:05] You change the route each time.
[00:49:07] It's tradition.
[00:49:07] It's much more interesting.
[00:49:09] You can't come back the same way you went.
[00:49:10] No, exactly.
[00:49:11] Yeah, you've got your way there and your way back.
[00:49:13] Anyway, I think that's it, isn't it, for this one?
[00:49:16] Yeah.
[00:49:16] Because we're going to have a few weeks off.
[00:49:18] Yeah, we've got a couple of weeks off, haven't we?
[00:49:20] We're having a nice little break.
[00:49:21] Yeah.
[00:49:21] Spend time with our families.
[00:49:23] Yeah.
[00:49:23] Make memories.
[00:49:24] Yeah, make memories, which is really important.
[00:49:27] A few headaches.
[00:49:28] A few, yeah.
[00:49:30] The hangovers.
[00:49:31] Yeah.
[00:49:33] So it's nice little break.
[00:49:34] It'll be 2025 when we come back.
[00:49:36] Oh gosh.
[00:49:37] 20, 20.
[00:49:37] Another year older.
[00:49:39] That's terrifying.
[00:49:39] And wiser.
[00:49:40] And wiser, yeah.
[00:49:42] Well, I don't know about that.
[00:49:43] So there's nothing more to say other than we wish everybody a very merry Christmas.
[00:49:50] Yeah, have a merry Christmas.
[00:49:51] Happy New Year.
[00:49:52] Oh, and happy New Year.
[00:49:53] Yes, of course, yeah.
[00:49:55] Yeah.
[00:49:55] We wish you a merry Christmas.
[00:49:56] Oh, I'm not singing.
[00:49:57] I don't want to sing.
[00:49:59] And a happy New Year.
[00:50:00] Oh dear.
[00:50:01] We're definitely wrapping it up here.
[00:50:02] Oh, my voice is going there as well.
[00:50:04] Yeah, exactly.
[00:50:05] You can cut that bit off if you want.
[00:50:07] Yeah.
[00:50:07] Some serious editing needs to go on here.
[00:50:11] But yeah, thank you everyone for joining us and thanks for the coming to me.
[00:50:14] Thanks for the invite.
[00:50:15] Thank you.
[00:50:15] Yeah, I've enjoyed it.
[00:50:16] It's been really interesting.
[00:50:18] It's been lovely chatting.
[00:50:18] Yeah, that's what it's about, isn't it?
[00:50:20] It's about challenging our views and opinions and thoughts.
[00:50:23] Yeah, and throwing it out there, isn't it?
[00:50:25] Just letting it out there.
[00:50:26] Yeah.
[00:50:27] And I think most of all, what is important is talking like we have, religion gets labelled
[00:50:33] as cause and wars.
[00:50:35] Yeah.
[00:50:35] And that's what we haven't done.
[00:50:36] No, we haven't caused a war yet.
[00:50:38] No, we haven't argued.
[00:50:39] Each and every one of us sat here tonight has had a different view and that's been lovely.
[00:50:45] It's been lovely to see.
[00:50:46] If you don't have different views, how can you nerd something?
[00:50:49] Exactly.
[00:50:50] Yeah, it's been great.
[00:50:51] Yeah.
[00:50:51] So thank you very much.
[00:50:53] And yeah, if anyone does have any questions, by the way, we keep saying this week in, week
[00:50:57] out, but email us at themediumsvoicepodcast at gmail.com and we'll read them out.
[00:51:03] And we've had a few, haven't we, over the past few months.
[00:51:06] We have, yes.
[00:51:07] So it's been really, really nice.
[00:51:08] And it gets us thinking about things as well and challenging our thoughts.
[00:51:12] Yeah.
[00:51:12] But it's been wonderful and we hope you all have a wonderful Christmas.
[00:51:17] Thank you.
[00:51:17] Thank you very much.
[00:51:18] Thank you very much.